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Introduction
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Martin Sheerin: if you think about them as a number, you'll drive the number up now, but it's very short lived. So, but you think about them as a human or a person, then you can have that relationship with them, can't you?

Cause then all of the other pressures. So in week trading, well, they get easier if you've got more customers to talk to that trust you. So why wouldn't you want to do that?

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Welcome to Statements of Intent. In this 20 minute episode, we're addressing how eCommerce has lost sight of the people at its very heart. You, the customer. It's a chat that's optimistic, it's casual, it's probably slightly ranty in places, but that's okay. But it's a place where I talk to senior eCommerce marketers.

And share their statement of how they're looking to change the status quo of eCommerce, adding more care, being more considerate to those very people that they're selling to - the customer. I'm your host, David Mannheim, the founder of ���ϴ��¼�. And we're going to jump right into it. Have fun

David Mannheim: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Statements of Intent.

Guest Introduction: Martin Sheeran
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David Mannheim: I am joined today by Mr. Martin Sheeran, director of digital products over at N Brown. Someone I've been trying to coax online, uh, or for ages. Uh, how long has it been now, Martin? What do you think our last communication was when I said, why don't you come on our podcast?

Martin Sheerin: Uh, it was a few, few months ago, I would say. And I actually read an email where you, earlier on today, where you said you're aiming for me to be. And in your first 10, and I might end up at number 400. So, uh,

David Mannheim: I think you might be like number 19. Yes. So well done. So, uh, actually navigated that.

The Role of a Director of Digital Products
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David Mannheim: Um, but yeah, so you're here talk to us about what a director of digital product actually does.

Is that a fancy title for saying director of digital or what, what's the, what's the product involvement?

Martin Sheerin: So, um, so my role covers, uh, product management, user experience and, uh, digital products operations. So working within the technology space at N Brown and obviously across all of the sites and apps. So working in line with the digital marketing team, for example, or the marketing team, um, and trading.

Um, basically everything that will need to be done on any of the sites or apps comes through my team. So what do I do? I go to lots of meetings looking at how, um, the great ideas we've got across the business. We can, we can, um, how fast we can get them live. But before that, are they, are the real good ideas?

Are they viable? Possible for us to deliver, um, and also looking at what's, what's the business case look like for all these ideas and, um, how we're going to measure it. So we've, we've been moving into, to lean into KPIs and how we measure the success of a thing, be it a feature, a new product, um, or any activities.

So looking at the leading and then lagging, lagging metrics where I think Been a real opportunity for us to improve things where I think typically you would focus on one or the other. So a lagging metric can actually be really hard to pick apart in terms of, uh, on site or on app. Um, so then you will focus on the leading metrics, which are much simpler.

But then if you don't connect the two, you don't see whether a thing has has worked or not.

Understanding Leading vs. Lagging Metrics
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Martin Sheerin: So, um, Can you give an example

David Mannheim: of like the difference between a leading metric and a lagging metrics?

Martin Sheerin: So, well, yeah, so lagging metrics, things like revenue or, uh, conversion rate can be, uh, a lagging metric to, to some degree.

Um, and we're trying to be really simplistic on the leading. Leading metrics. So, um, things that might indicate we put, uh, a test live on a product details, a product listings page. So where we have all the products on a page, um, with the intention of moving to a product details page. Um, so the action might be the movement of, uh, user or customers from one place to another, which is a leading metric, or we've put a new button on how many customers have clicked on that button.

So that's a leading metric to say driving engagement for the thing. Okay. Um, but then what's really important is that engagement initially might not actually drive. The business outcome that we're intending. So, and also if you then put a customer lens on that, the activity that you've, uh, the activity or feature that you've aimed for initially might have a detrimental accidental impact.

So where you would then hear that through, uh, the, the contact sensor or we do, uh, you can get. Uh, customer engagement surveys, things like that. So it's making sure we are joining things up. So again, I suppose the engagement service are also examples of lagging metrics as well. So

David Mannheim: that's really interesting.

I feel like I instinctively feel like a leading metric. Is that like a micro and a macro conversion almost, but a leading metric. It feels like it should be a greater indicator of progress than a lagging metric, because a lagging metric, you can't influence that in real time, almost, it's, it's already happened.

Hence the word lagging, right? It feels retrospective to what you've done. It's still a measure of success, but do you, do you have a favorite between the two? Like, do you put more emphasis on one over the other?

Martin Sheerin: So my team will, uh, Tell you I'm a little bit, uh, schizophrenic with it. Um, so obviously what really matters from a business point of view is that we are, uh, driving revenue.

Okay. Um, that's the thing that will pay all of our wages. Okay. Um, but we're, we're having a favorite is the wrong, wrong, wrong thing for us really. So, um, what I don't want to have is an excuse that I can't see whether the thing he's having an impact on or okay. Hence the use of the, the leading metrics.

The lagging metrics are things where we then will, we will then bring things together. Um, in some instances you have to infer that the, the impact of the work that you've, you've, uh, put live are driving the, the lagging metric quite make, make, make sense. So that's also where you think about the customer experience.

So everyone's got great ideas. Okay. Um,

The Importance of Customer-Centric Testing
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Martin Sheerin: how would you make sure that the thing that you thought was useful to customers is actually useful to customers? So we try and test these things. So we we're also pushing into more, um, I will say conversion rate optimization. Okay. The, that term does a bit of a disservice as to what the, uh, the teams are looking to do.

So is measuring the, the success of the, the development, um, of a, a feature and, and the impact on customers. But that's not always to drive a conversion uplift. It can, or rather in terms of pure cash or sales, it can be to make sure that we've, we've not done something that's detrimental to, to the customer journey as a whole.

Um, also if you think about customers where they are not, um, they're not conversion rates. A number, customers out a number. They won't always do the activity that you want a customer to do. Isn't always going to be, um, well, they're not always going to do what you, you want them to do. When we test, we're looking to see whether customers can complete the activity that we believe they came here to do.

That might be, uh, self serve through, uh, my account. So, you know, where is my order? That type of thing. So not just pure. We moved because we, we. Put a promotion on the website and they more customers bought. Therefore we drove conversion apart. We changed the button color and things like that. So it's not just that.

So

David Mannheim: yeah, it's really interesting. It's like this whole leading and lagging, lagging Metro thing coming from a world of personalization. That is, leading metric, it's something that's not really going to necessitate an immediate attribution, right? Because personalization is all about trying to create a relationship with the audience, be more appropriate, be relevant with the end user.

Whereas if you do personalization purely for a lagging metric, you get things like. We get stuck in the world of like say just recommendations or anything that almost omits the customer they It's all for the business. It's all to provide the lagging metric the conversion rate as you write I don't know if you know this, you know, um There's a really good article by a chap called Gibson Biddle and he taught he was the product director over at Netflix Yeah, have you read this or have you seen this?

Martin Sheerin: Depends what you're gonna say

David Mannheim: He talks about how it took 10 years for Netflix to prove that personalization had any impact on the business whatsoever, i. e. a lagging metric. I just find that really interesting. Like sometimes we do things for the sake of the customer, not really for the immediate sake of the business, but appreciating that that'll take a A long time to come to fruition.

Have you seen any of that with any of your work, not just at N Brown, but your previous career?

Martin Sheerin: Yeah, well, I think we've got the, we've, we've previously had the reverse of that. So where, um, if you, if you're driving for, uh, an internal metric, so our average order value, I need to increase average or basket size.

Okay. So if you think about, uh, petrol stations. Okay. So, uh, you're filling your car up and there's those, uh, options of antifreeze or gloves, random things, you know, heated gloves or, or what have you. So, um, websites and e commerce have done that sort of thing within basket. So where we push a product that we want to sell rather, which then if you have a five pound out in your basket.

Okay. It's increasing the overall basket size or average order value not thinking through the what the customer actually wanted at that point in time So, you know more trying to push That immediate purchase a bit like the supermarkets used to put chocolate on the on the end of tills So Your children would purchase them.

So, you know, You get it everywhere now,

David Mannheim: though, don't you? You get it at like Primark and Topman. Topman is Topman's school, I think. Uh, yeah.

Martin Sheerin: Shows my age. It's on a guess, is

David Mannheim: it? Or some other gens, non millennial, uh, shops are available. Uh, yeah. Yeah, you get them everywhere.

Martin Sheerin: I get what you mean. But none of that is actually thinking about the customer.

It's just about driving up sales. So we've done tests at N Brown around, um, how do we, uh, help the customer, uh, buy the right clothes for them. So if that, that, by that, we know from speaking to our customers, they struggle with. Style. Okay. As in the customer verbatim has said that so we've, you know, face to face interviews, they want to know what goes well.

Um, we also know that, uh, if you're certainly all the last couple of years, customer shopping on a budget. So does this. dress go with three different pairs of shoes? Yeah, because I'm only going to buy one dress, but I might buy multiple pairs of shoes or handbags or that type of thing. We know that's a common problem and not, not only for, uh, our female shoppers, but also, uh, on Giacomo.

Uh, we've had men that don't know how to dress themselves with their words. Yeah. And actually they're the things that we can, um, assist them in. And that is personalization, which also meets, um, the business goal. So a customer that knows that they want a, they want to know that the things that they wear look good.

And that actually in a world where they, they're, uh, through the cost of living. They've got like less expendable income that there's got, there are the clothes that they wear, they can add to add accessories to, and therefore where different, uh, occasions, perhaps. So those types of things where we're able to push the right product to the customer, not just because we want to sell more products, but also it helps them, um, to achieve a sense of confidence.

And style, but they look good and it feels good. And also therefore it will drive up our value in one sense, but also that they're getting a sense of confidence in our brands. So where we've done that is, um, it's simplistic, I suppose, around suits, um, and swimwear and things like that. So, um, where tops and bottoms go together, um, what we're looking at are obviously style finder type products.

So, uh, You could have, um, what I said earlier. So this dress goes with these items, these other items. Yeah. All these three dresses go with these, you know, so we've got a variation of that. So, um,

David Mannheim: Well, I guess what you're talking about is, I mean, this goes back to your statement on 10, right, Martin, which is not thinking of your customer as a number, but I'm almost appreciating the human side of things.

How do you, how do you balance that? I guess is, you know, when you were in a meeting. And you've got people talking about these lagging metrics and understanding the need to impact business, the five pound additional chocolate, uh, um, at Topman, how do you, how do you balance the, uh, the human side of things?

We've not just think about the numbers.

Martin Sheerin: So, so how do we balance that? So to be fair, uh, and Brown is not a difficult conversation at the moment now. Now. So I think the, the business has massively evolved over the last few years with, uh, Our understanding of the customer, so we have a connection with. The customer through customer insight and also our user research team.

So, whilst obvious, obviously all of my ideas are great. Yeah. Um, never had a bad idea. So, uh, that that isn't true of everybody. So we make sure that, uh, we, we test our ideas with real customers. Um, uh, so, uh, also we are, we have, uh, an insight program where we capture the voice of the customer. Um, but we also look to, um, continue to test things once they're in live.

Okay. To make, try and make sure that what we thought would happen has happened and can, and, and it continues to be a positive or not. Um, Do you have like a holdback

David Mannheim: group or something?

Martin Sheerin: So

David Mannheim: there's a percentage of users? Yeah, so we do holdouts,

Martin Sheerin: AA tests, that type of thing. But also, if we start, if we make sure that we are monitoring these things as we We can see whether we, where we see a tail off.

When you're looking to add five pound chocolates to top man, for example, um, We we do put that back onto the customer and what's the the impact to them now? And is that solving a real problem for them? Because again, I know we the chocolate example It isn't a real one But if we're not helping our customer feel better about themselves in terms of size and fit then we're not achieving what our brands are That's how to do.

So it's quite an easy conversation from that point of view. We also know if we get this customer experience correct, then these customers will come back and shop with us again. Yeah.

David Mannheim: Yeah. Well, I mean, you would definitely like to think so proven that, I mean, that's the whole world of attribution. That's really difficult to do.

I'm really curious in how, so what you're saying, your answer is basically, you've got, You got, you got customer champions within the business. You've got your research team. You've got evidence behind that research team in the form of AB testing. Martin, you, you sit in the middle or above all of that. You have pressures coming from above.

And I can imagine that they're in the form of short term pressures of weekly trade meetings and long term pressures in the form of, well, annual reviews or, or, you know, or budgeting. So I guess it's like the balance of those two things. How do you balance the immediate and short term pressure of weekly trade meetings versus no, we're doing this because we know it's right for the client, uh, the client, the customer.

We know they're not just a number and we don't need to prove that all the time. How do you balance that pressure?

The Three-Speed Model: Run, Grow, Transform
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Martin Sheerin: Uh, we pretty much operate a sort of three speed model that covers that off, really. So, um, your, your immediate pressures are covered in what we would call run, okay? Um, so where we can be more reactive within that from a testing point of view.

So we can, we can run conversion rate tests. That might be a, a, something we can do more quickly and more easily to test an idea. Um, we can obviously, we From a trade point of view, we can put products on a promotion and test that way. Um, and then from a more, uh, longer term view, we're looking at what the true problems for the business are from a customer lens.

Um, so, uh, are we doing the things that we told our customers that we would do? So you have, uh, a customer's come to the site to buy a green dress. In size 18. Do we have any green dresses in size 18? 1. Right. Yeah. Sorry. Step before that. Do we sell green dresses in size 18? Yes, we do. Okay. 2. They get to the site.

Do we have any green dresses in size 18 in stock? Yeah. Right. Can we then move that customer? So one, can we give them confidence that it gives them the customer confidence that dress will look good on them? Okay. So improving the product information, for example. Yeah. So, um, so we, we do that type of thing.

But, and then obviously there's a backdrop of that, of how we improve the user experience on site to move a customer through that. So, so let's assume someone's come for a size 18 green dress on our sites. They've added to bag, they've purchased, okay, then what happens? How long does the product take to get to them, to their door, okay?

And then what's their experience after that? So assume we deliver it on time, and it's the product that it wanted, yeah? They're, they're the things that we are looking to, to expand upon. So, because we know at all these points we could, We could fail that customer, fail their expectations. So monitoring and measuring those things and seeing where the opportunities are, which might have deviated really from your question there.

So we have a tactical work and longer term work. Part of

David Mannheim: the speed, they run. What Run, Sprint, Walk, or?

Martin Sheerin: So, well, we actually, we actually use Run, Grow, and Transform. Okay, uh, so transformational activities are things, so over the last two years we have, uh, launched, uh, a new Giacomo website and a new Simply Be website.

Um, and we've introduced a new product information management tool. Okay. So there are big things that have a finite life, uh, lifespan. Okay. That's what, so, so transformational activities. Yeah. Uh, and we will be launching JD Williams in a few weeks, uh, in a few months. Everyone will be panicking now. So yeah, is that in a couple of months, that'll be, uh, that'll be going live as well.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so, um, and they're the bigger things that we know actually. So from our legacy sites that if you think about things that influence, uh, sales, uh, old websites built on old technology are slower. So Google will say, make your websites faster. They might say it in a more complex way than that.

Make it faster. Make it a better experience. Make sure it works on mobile. Okay? So we've given you websites that are faster, a better experience, and work on mobile. Now, that's your base capability that you didn't have before. So in terms of sales activity, sales opportunity, you've got something you didn't have before because you've got a performance site.

Then, on top of that, is how the trading teams then operate, which is Have, um, have we bought and priced and range the right set of products? Okay. And that, and that obviously is just their, their day to day activities. So it's a, it's that overlap. And then, like I said earlier on, we test the sites. And so we'll do conversion rate, uh, testing for those ideas that we've got in the business.

Um, and for me, the testing is not. Everyone's got a great idea. He's making sure that the idea we've got initially has a sound hypothesis. So,

David Mannheim: we know that the only great ideas actually come from you, Martin. Yes,

Martin Sheerin: obviously. Obviously. Only, only. So, um, so, um, but making sure we are, we are continuing to test and try to leverage the opportunities as we go.

Um, but it does all loop back to about how we operate as a business. So, um, Actually representing the customer in the conversations. Um, what are the things that are no brainers that get in the way of that customer experience. Um, you know, so, and, and to that end, we're not only looking at, so I've mentioned that we've, uh, improved the Giacomo and simply be sites.

We're also looking at my account. Um, so, which really key from a customer. So what do you want to know as soon as you've ordered something? When do I get it? Okay. So that's the activity. So, and is it clear on, on, on what communication do I get between clicking by and receiving the product? And then obviously the steps beyond that, which we starting to look at as well.

So that whole loop. So before you come to our websites or apps through to, how do, how do I make you want to make a second purchase with us? And some of that is Post purchase experience. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. , you know, so, but some of it's on onsite and how we make you feel about, um, your experience there. I'll say emotionally.

Yeah. But I don't quite mean emotionally. I don't, it's a feel, right? Yeah. It's a, yeah, I get it. So a bit of a, yeah. Kind of trust what's being said. So, which is a feeling of

David Mannheim: trust. Sorry, David. Well, trust is a feeling, so like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I really like that as a. There's a message. I think what I'm hearing from you is, so I really like the run, grow and transform.

It reminds me a lot of, uh, there's a YouTube presentation of the different types of A B tests that people, people do. I'll put it in a link to this. And they call it versioning, visioning and venturing. I think because it's all alliterative. It sounds pretty cool like that, uh, but it's exactly the same concept of what you're talking about with Rogue, um, Run, Grow and Transform.

I also really like the difference between laggards and leading metrics. And obviously at the heart of all of this, you've given us some really nice, good examples of putting the customer at the heart of these conversations. It feels like customer centricity, well, not just 101, but more advanced than that.

Just to round off everything there, would you have any advice for not thinking of the person at the other end of the screen as just a data point?

Martin's Advice For Other eComm Leaders
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David Mannheim: Would you have any advice for other people?

Martin Sheerin: So, the advice, I don't know if it's advice or not, but what I try and do and what my team's trying to do is, It's think about what the experience would be like for them on the other side of the screen. Okay. And what is your expectation? So, um, when I worked previously, when I went to co op bank, okay. So we, uh, did lots of research again, uh, around the, the co op customers.

And what we found was no great surprise. People in the UK didn't typically trust financial institutions. They didn't understand financial products. Um, and we were developing a whole new co op site and a smile site at the time. So we did, we did something in terms of that experience that was counter intuitive.

But if you think about as a customer, based on the research that we had, it was the right thing to do. And obviously I'm not telling you a story that, Of something that failed, otherwise I would have kept that to myself. So what we actually did, uh, based on the feedback was we made it harder for you to, uh, apply for a, uh, current account.

And what we did was we, we forced you to read the content and the description of the product that was the current account. Okay. Now, if you're just doing conversion optimization, you'd minimize the content and push you through. Okay. What we found was by making it, uh, a slightly longer process. So, uh, and you having the time and we, uh, to read the concept and we broke it down.

So it was easily readable and no standard reading, reading age in the UK. And so we really did it, did it to. To, uh, quite some depth we, what that meant to us is not only did we get an uplift in the number of customers that were applying for a current account, which was a surprise. Yeah. We retained more

David Mannheim: interested,

Martin Sheerin: which it all makes sense.

So the research said we don't trust or understand financial products. We help you understand the product. You stay for longer because you trusted us. And then at co op as we launched, um, I can't remember the name of the product, but if that's a VIP current account, okay. Which had a reward, you know, benefits like insurance or mobile phone insurance or, you know, travel insurance, that type of thing.

Yeah. So, um, and we were, obviously there's a lot of regulation around at the time. So it depends. Uh, I think miss selling, I think the PPI scanner, uh, um, that type of thing. So we were very deliberate around that and working with the internal, um, risk team and regulations, uh, team in spelling out how we could help the customer to understand.

So we did again, things in there that were counterintuitive to conversion rate optimization, but help the customer. And then. Made them more sticky, I would say, from an e com point of view. So, um, so if you, we just thought about those customers as numbers, and I've got a lot of numbers initially, but the real value is in that ongoing, um, engagement and not so much lifetime value.

So the lifetime relationship with that customer. So we did things counter. So if you think about them as a number, you'll drive the number up now, but it's very short lived. So, but you think about them as a human or a person, then you can have that relationship with them, can't you? So why wouldn't you want to do that?

Cause then all of the other pressures. So in week trading, well, they get easier if you've got more customers to talk to that trust you. So

David Mannheim: I love that Martin, quality, not quantity, um,

Outro
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David Mannheim: say bye to everyone because we're going to go. everyone.

Martin Sheerin: Thank you.

There we have it. Thank you so much for listening. Please do like, subscribe and share on whatever platform it is that you're listening to on today. This show comes from the team behind ���ϴ��¼�, the customer intent platform for retailers. If you are of course, interested in being more profitable, whilst being more personal.

And please feel free to check us out at madewithintent. ai. Thanks again for listening and joining us on our mission to change how eCommerce sees, measures, and treats their customers. I've been your host, David Mannheim. Have a great day.

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